episode 47: Money Talk – I Earn, He Pays

Speaker 1: 0:00
Given modern times, I feel the financial responsibilities of a wife are Islamically no responsibilities but if required during emergencies, she can work with her husband to come up with a plan to assist the family in times of need temporarily. However, it is the duty of the husband to provide.

Speaker 2: 0:20
Assalamu alaikum, I’m Hiba.

Speaker 1: 0:21
And I’m Zaid.

Speaker 2: 0:22
You’re listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

Speaker 1: 0:24
A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

Speaker 2: 0:28
We’ll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

Speaker 1: 0:32
So let’s dive in. Bismillah, as-salamu alaykum everyone. Welcome to another episode. My name is Zaid and on the other mic is my wife and co-host, hiba. As-salamu alaykum, my name is Zaid and on the other mic is my wife and co-host.

Speaker 2: 0:43
Hiba Assalamu.

Speaker 1: 0:46
Alaikum, financial expectations. So this is such a hot topic when it comes to the courting phase. Everybody knows money is such a sensitive topic, even after you’re married. People just like they get this very uncomfortable feeling talking about finances, joint accounts, savings, this and that. Nonetheless, nonetheless, it is an integral part of the courting phase and when we were talking we did kind of discuss a little bit about finances, right? Honestly, I can’t remember um I think our conversations focus mostly on minimalism on lifestyle lifestyle.

Speaker 1: 1:23
Minimalism was a big part of our conversations, which does somewhat tie into finances right, and we were pretty clear that we wanted to live a very simple, modest life. You know, we didn’t have any big dreams of buying a mansion or, um, you know, buying brand name clothes or fancy cars. We didn’t really care much for that stuff. Did you have any specific financial expectations in mind?

Speaker 1: 1:49
maybe you didn’t feel comfortable addressing it, but did you have any? Because obviously you were talking to guys before me when you’re on the matrimonial website. So what were your expectations?

Speaker 2: 1:58
um, I think the expectation that every girl has is that the main financial responsibility would fall on the guy’s shoulders. Um, but in terms of my responsibilities, I thought I’m gonna find a job, I’m gonna contribute, but I don’t know how, exactly, what um like to what extent. But honestly, I’ve never looked at it as like what you contribute and what I contribute, like I look at it like two spouses. They’re working towards the same aim, which is the financial health of the family. Right, so they’re both contributing, they’re both working towards financial stability okay.

Speaker 1: 2:45
So let me throw a question at you. Let’s say we’ve been talking for a few weeks, conversations are flowing, we’re compatible on so many levels religion, lifestyle, everything. And then I kind of hint at you that I’m looking for a 50 50 financial contribution, but you’re going to contribute 50. I’m looking for a 50-50 financial contribution, you’re going to contribute 50%, I’m going to contribute 50% and we’re going to put this money into account and that’s going to go towards the expenses. How would you feel?

Speaker 2: 3:15
I think putting it in numbers like this is a major turnoff for any girl, especially if we’re talking about 50%, 50%.

Speaker 1: 3:23
Okay, feel free to explain what turns you off about that, about just the idea of 50-50?.

Speaker 2: 3:30
First of all, as Muslims and even non-Muslims, a wife looks up to the man as the leader, as the provider. You could say, right, as someone who’s going to take the financial responsibility at large. Okay, and she would help, she would support, but at the end of the day, her job, her role as a wife is take care of the husband, take care of the house, take care of the children. And if she has dreams of her own and if she has a career, then she would contribute, of course. But putting it in these numbers, it’s like we are business partners now.

Speaker 1: 4:10
we are not husband and wife I think the the statement stems from the fact that it’s almost especially if you’re a girl in the west, where you know you have the means of getting an education and getting a career is much easier. I guess, in circumstances here, the expectation is that, naturally, your wife is going to be working, whether that’s part-time, full-time, whatever it might be, and so it’s, I guess, safe to assume that she would be contributing financially in some form.

Speaker 2: 4:44
Yeah, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 1: 4:46
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:46
Just putting it in numbers like this, and I’m expecting 50% we actually had a client like this. You remember the guy right?

Speaker 1: 4:54
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:55
We set him up with a girl and on the date he was very honest. He’s I’m expecting 50%. If you’re going to be working, you’re going to be contributing 50%. If you’re not working, then I’m in going to be contributing 50%. If you’re not working, then I’m in charge of finances. You don’t ask me where I get my, how I get my money, what I spend my money on. So, of course, naturally, the girl was absolutely turned off and it didn’t work out.

Speaker 1: 5:18
I mean, that’s an extreme case and I can understand why a girl would be turned off, and I totally agree with you that as a man, you want to demonstrate you are the provider, you’re the caretaker, you know you’re not going to be a couch potato and rely on your wife to be the breadwinner. However, um, where I get turned off is the idea that a girl has intentions on working and possibly even pursuing a career, even after children, yet she wants to place the expectations of financial responsibility entirely upon the husband, and there is no hint, no indication that she’s going to contribute, unless in case it’s an emergency. So my question is what do you plan on spending your money on?

Speaker 2: 6:08
yeah, that’s I. I never understood that like a girl who’s successful, she has a career, she has her education, and she’s like no, I’m not required, I’m gonna keep my career and I’m not required to spend on the family, like first we ran into a situation like that, remember yeah, we were interviewing a girl and we asked her point blank that, um, you know what?

Speaker 1: 6:30
what do you plan on doing with your money? Um, given that you plan on working post-marriage?

Speaker 2: 6:36
and she said I would be donating it to the community yeah, while her husband struggles and works day and night, may or may not struggle.

Speaker 1: 6:43
But her husband would not receive any of that or the none of her income would go to the general expenses of the home yeah, exactly that.

Speaker 2: 6:52
I think that’s something that girls sometimes misunderstand is that you’re not giving money to your husband, you’re not spending on your husband. You are supporting the family like it’s your family, it’s your kids, it’s both, like both of you are living under the same roof, utilizing the utilities, the food, the whatever, so it’s not like you’re giving him money I think it stems from a certain level of fear that, um, if girls aren’t clear about that from the get-go, that their rights are going to be trampled upon.

Speaker 1: 7:28
And that they’re. You know, by stating that, Islamically, I don’t have to contribute Islamically, these are what my responsibilities are, and if they don’t do that, then the guy’s going to take advantage of them.

Speaker 2: 7:40
Yes yeah, and I think also because some girls have seen what’s out there, have seen that guys are expecting 50, like in writing or something, and yeah, I guess, like we did hear it from that guy, and I’m sure he’s not the only one and we had another girl who said, uh, on her form, that it’s a major turnoff for her when guys mention it in the first two or three meetings that they’re expecting 50.

Speaker 1: 8:10
and I think this is just a reaction, like one extreme leads to another extreme so the sad thing is that it’s a few bad, few bad apples that are just ruining for everyone you never know, maybe it’s more than few bad apples I guess. I don’t know, I’m not every guy out there on his match or on on the matrimony website, so I don’t know um, but you know um, like when girls say that islamically I’m not required, islamically it’s the guy’s responsibility.

Speaker 2: 8:38
Well, there is a spirit of islam besides the the, the fiqh itself, the ruling itself exactly so.

Speaker 1: 8:46
Any experienced, qualified scholar, any sort of counselor, anybody would tell you that if you’re going to base your marriage on just the legalities, on just the technicalities, your marriage will not flourish yeah, yeah, um habib akande elaborated on that just last week yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:06
And actually, if you are going to stick to the Islamic rulings, well, Islamically, your husband can stop you from working. You’re only working because of his permission right.

Speaker 1: 9:19
Exactly. And not just that, he does not have to provide anything beyond food, shelter, clothing, feminine hygiene products, which falls under maintenance and care. But we can skip the flowers, the anniversaries, the vacations, the dining out, all the small things that make the marriage beautiful that bring life into the marriage.

Speaker 2: 9:42
He can skip out on all that and just live on the bare minimum so, whatever he’s spending more than that, just the bare minimum that’s sadaqah from him. Now wouldn’t you want to reciprocate the sadaqah, especially like we’re not saying that you’re not working, you want to have a traditional life, but now you feel forced to go out and work and provide? That’s not what we’re saying. But if you are planning on having a career, then why not meet your husband halfway? He’s trying his best to provide more than just a bare minimum. So it just. I think honestly it’s just about the perspective, like how marriage is perceived. If it’s perceived as partnership, it it makes it more like a business. I do my part, you do your part.

Speaker 1: 10:28
Or an exchange.

Speaker 2: 10:29
An exchange, but it’s not marriage. In reality, it’s not like that. Marriage is a union right.

Speaker 1: 10:36
Like we always say it’s a union.

Speaker 2: 10:38
It’s a means of growth for both of you, and you’re there to cover each other’s faults, support each other.

Speaker 1: 10:45
One is going gonna fall short here, the other one’s gonna fall short here, but we can’t keep sticking to the you can’t keep score I guess yeah yeah, and obviously we gotta address the, the the most common sense part of this, which is inflation is high, cost of living is high. You really expect a guy to take care of everything, unless he’s, you know, a high-end professional or a successful entrepreneur.

Speaker 2: 11:10
I mean, those are the exceptions or maybe he inherited some money, or he inherited a large amount of money, but I’m talking about the, the average guy okay, the cost I mean come on walmart’s butter right now is like 8, 50 or 9 dollars. It’s ridiculous let alone if there are kids in the picture Right.

Speaker 1: 11:27
So I mean, yeah, on top of that, you know, if you’re not going to be working post kids, then he’s going to be, you know, bearing the burden even more. So just be mindful of that, alleviate his burden as much as you can, instead of just treating marriage like it’s some sort of transaction.

Speaker 2: 11:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:46
And so those words that you heard in the beginning were word for word what one of our clients put in her form in regards to financial expectations. And, believe it or not, these are words that we read often, where girls are saying in some form or another that they will only contribute in case of an emergency, or that they’ll only help out for vacations or, you know, bills here and there, and that they’re just hinting at the fact that they want to be treated as a backup financial plan and to start off a marriage like that where you are just putting the financial burden on your husband. I mean, I’m going to be pretty blunt here and I remember saying this to you earlier on and I still stick to this, stick to this, that if a girl chooses to work and does not contribute in some form or another to the general expenses of the home, then she is selfish I have to say I agree with you.

Speaker 1: 12:49
I agree with you and for you, for girls and I know when I say you I’m addressing girls for you to just hide behind religion is such a turnoff. For a guy it’s a huge turnoff. And if I was to read anything like that even remotely hinted at the idea of her not contributing or just contributing in a very minimal form, my impression would be that she’s coming in with a very transactional mindset, that she’s not treating marriage as a union right, as a team, where, like you and I are on the same team. And I was saying this to you the other day that you know the way I look at marriage, and even back when I was still searching, is that my wife’s dreams, goals, her desires, her ambitions, they’re mine and I would expect my dreams, my goals, my desires and everything that I want out of life to be hers right, and that we’re helping each other right, given within this, that it’s within the framework of islam, yeah, that we’re helping each other to achieve that your success is my success.

Speaker 2: 14:03
My success is your success.

Speaker 1: 14:04
Yeah, right, just like chris roxanne, yeah okay, let me ask you a question okay, so let’s go back to islamically, right?

Speaker 2: 14:12
so, islamically, the girl should be taken care of. Now, some might like this, some might hate this, but according to islam, a girl should be taken care of, whether she’s at her parents house, whether she’s married, whether she’s divorced, she shouldn’t have to worry about finances.

Speaker 1: 14:31
Right, this is right okay, I’m not, I can’t argue with that.

Speaker 2: 14:36
Okay, right, that’s islam okay, so that’s a privilege that women get in islam right now for a girl. I know where you’re going with this no for a girl to come out and say that is it wrong no, no, I was actually gonna ask you a question yeah can you tell me, like honestly, that if you were a girl and you knew that you had this option, I never have to worry about finances, I never have to work, I’m always taken care of. If you were a girl, would you forfeit this privilege?

Speaker 1: 15:08
I mean when you phrase it like that first of all, I’m not a girl. No, I mean that’s a very loaded question, because the way that I phrased it before is that if a girl chooses to work, if you choose not to work and you want to live that lifestyle, that’s fine. You are completely within your Islamic right to do that. But realize this that it comes at a cost right that you cannot have it both ways.

Speaker 2: 15:38
I was going to say, yeah, that’s a fair point, yes, that’s a fair point. Yes, that’s a fair point, right like.

Speaker 1: 15:42
You want that lifestyle. That’s fine, so it’s within your right. But realize that we’re gonna have to forego dining out.

Speaker 2: 15:50
We’re gonna have to forego the fancy vacation if he can’t afford it. If I can, most likely I won’t be able to afford it.

Speaker 1: 15:55
I’ll be honest right, and I would assume that the average guy cannot afford it, who probably lives in Ontario. So we’re going to have to forego a lot of things that you would otherwise enjoy. So pick what you want.

Speaker 2: 16:11
I was actually going to say something else. I thought you were referring to this when you said you want to have it both ways, as in a girl wants to work, I want to prove myself, I want to contribute to society. I want to prove myself, I want to contribute to society, I want to be successful and have a career. So she wants to have that and at the same time, she wants to be taken care of. So it feels that some girls want to have their cake and eat it too.

Speaker 1: 16:33
I totally agree. Yeah, I totally agree. The girl that we were mentioning earlier who said that she would come contribute her money to the community. It just really felt like she wanted to have her cake and eat it too like subhanallah, who has the most right to your sadaqah?

Speaker 2: 16:50
is it people in the community, or is it your husband, who’s working, who’s trying his best to provide for the family? Like, if you want to spend your money as a sadaqah, then your family is the most right money as a sadaqah, then your family is the most rightful to the sadaqah. Like, there’s the story of the wife of Ibn Mas’ud, radiallahu anhu. Right, it’s exactly the same situation. She was providing for the family and the Prophet, peace be upon him, told her to keep spending on her family, because this way, you get double the reward the sadaqah itself and supporting your family kinship. Right, um, it is.

Speaker 2: 17:27
It is not that easy, honestly. Like you find yourself bombarded with, uh, feminist views and, at the same time, uh, islamic views, and you’re in the middle and you want to have the best, like, you want to be in the best situation for yourself, and it’s like, honestly, it becomes very confusing and, at the same time, like we said, like we don’t want to put all the blame on the girls, because what girls see from guys when they’re trying to get married, like some of it, is so crazy, it’s so outrageous. So they want to protect themselves.

Speaker 1: 18:05
I’d love to just see what guys are putting.

Speaker 2: 18:07
Honestly girls if you’re listening and if you’re going through this journey and you’re getting some crazy expectations from guys, please write to us, like we want to know what you’re seeing. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:19
I’d love to know yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:21
As Muslims, we need to understand that the deen came to make our life easier and it’s a way to rule our lives and just help us gain clarity navigating this life, and it’s not there for us to gain points or win an argument or have the upper hand and score more and so abusing the dean to make our life more convenient is unfair to the dean itself or using the dean as a means of leverage yeah, exactly right, because, like, like we said, you pull something like this, he will pull something else, and you will pull something else At the end of the day, like Islam would just become like this what is the word?

Speaker 2: 19:06
like this ping ball that you’re throwing at each other.

Speaker 1: 19:10
Right, I mean, it’s like you started off in the beginning of the episode. There’s the spirit of Islam and then there are the legal and technical aspects of Islam and then there are the legal and technical aspects of Islam. If you’re overwhelmed and burdened and just don’t know where to seek help, let us help you. We can be your personal matchmakers.

Speaker 2: 19:33
Visit us at halalmatchca and book a free call with us. Okay, let me ask you some questions, mister. Did you face something similar when you were looking?

Speaker 1: 19:42
What do you mean?

Speaker 2: 19:44
Like you would be talking to girls and they would mention something like oh, I’m not planning to work, or I expect all financial responsibilities to fall on your shoulders.

Speaker 1: 19:56
Not in that way what I would come across a lot of was the unrealistic expectations of profession which I’ve told you many times right.

Speaker 1: 20:05
That girls many cases parents, but also, in some situations, girls expecting me to pursue a more lucrative career you know, medicine, law, law, engineering, things like that uh, something that’s more financially stable, which isn’t too far off what we’re just talking talking about right now because that stems from the expectation that the girl’s going to be taken care of. So it um, that was a lot of what I was seeing. I feel I don’t recall having too many detailed conversations about finances specifically.

Speaker 2: 20:48
You know what you asked me about when I was looking like. If you asked me this question, or hinted to that question, I would honestly have no problem. Like, let’s say, I had a successful career and I was earning, I think I would have no problem contributing all my income to the family. But I would have a problem if somebody said I expect you to spend 50, even though I would be spending more and investing all my income on the family. But that would be fine with me, as opposed to somebody saying I expect you.

Speaker 1: 21:24
So I think what girls are turned off is the expectation that, oh, you’re expected to, you’re required to spend like girls don’t like that, uh, assumption I would spend if I want to spend I get where that’s coming from because, like I said before, it gives the impression that the guy is not fulfilling his duty as a leader, as a woman, and that he’s kind of coming off as like this lazy couch potato who doesn’t want to do his part or um cheap, a cheap guy or cheap guy yeah like, if you’re gonna be as a guy, if you’re gonna be spending 50, what are you gonna be doing with the rest of your income?

Speaker 2: 22:10
have you thought about that?

Speaker 1: 22:12
cars, toys. Well, in that your man cave.

Speaker 2: 22:19
Yeah, in that case, a girl is more entitled to do that than a guy Because, like we said, islamically he’s the one who’s responsible for finances.

Speaker 1: 22:30
Yeah, I think just having this conversation in general during the courting phase is tough and wording your questions carefully is very, very important.

Speaker 2: 22:44
Nonetheless, it’s a very important conversation to have and don’t feel like, oh, it’s going to come off awkward. I would feel uncomfortable to mention it because, like we said last week, finances and intimacy problems are the two major causes for divorce, so don’t put it off Now. The question is how to go about this conversation and when to go about it when to mention it.

Speaker 1: 23:12
So, number one, I would never go about this conversation in the first week, in the first or second week. In the first week, in the first or second week, um, I mean depending on how the pace of the courting phase is going. Uh, there are so many more important things to be talking about. Not to say that finance is not important, but you want to first focus on similarities, common values, interests, have some sense of flow to your conversations in the beginning, and then start talking about the more you know difficult stuff kids, lifestyle, finances, stuff like that. Now, how to phrase those questions? I would say, first of all, you want to see what is the lifestyle that this girl has been brought up in. Does she, you know, does she live in like downtown toronto, have her own house and you know? Or oakville, which is kind of an expensive area to live in?

Speaker 1: 24:07
oh is it? Oakville is, I think, um even mississauga is pretty expensive god, as if guelph is not expensive. Everywhere is expensive these days yeah, well, the further kind of east you go towards mississauga, the more expensive it gets. Regardless, you want to see her lifestyle right. How has she been? How has she been brought up? Um?

Speaker 1: 24:27
vice versa as well vice versa, but I’m talking from a guy’s perspective. Um, you know the kind of car she drives the the way she spends her money. I mean, is she the type to go window shopping every weekend? Does she just buy stuff she doesn’t need? Does she have an entire closet full of shoes, which reminds me of someone?

Speaker 2: 24:50
Salamsis.

Speaker 1: 24:53
So lifestyle? You want to assess her lifestyle and right off the bat, you can immediately assess okay, this person is going to be compatible for you or not. Because to pull somebody away from that and for them to accept something that’s less than what she is used to, to put it loosely, is a bit unrealistic, right? Is that a fair point?

Speaker 2: 25:16
uh. Well, what if she is used to this lifestyle but she’s willing to change? She has no problem changing.

Speaker 1: 25:21
Oh, come on does that really happen?

Speaker 2: 25:25
I, I don’t know.

Speaker 1: 25:26
It depends on the person she’s used to driving a mercedes-benz and having like an entire floor to herself in in her daddy’s house and uh, and buys new shoes every weekend, wears a brand name bag and stuff and then all of a sudden, her husband can’t do these things for her in that case, she should be the breadwinner if she can afford this lifestyle she can afford it because she lives at home

Speaker 2: 25:49
okay, right, and maybe daddy provides for us some of that that’s actually something we see a lot on girls forums that I’ve never had to worry about debt. It’s the guy’s responsibilities. I’ve always had a job, so the guy should as well. And and girls live with their parents. But wait a second, guys live with their parents as well until they get married, most guys right no, not really.

Speaker 1: 26:14
You’ve seen a lot of guys like the one guy we were just recently trying to match. He’s been living on his own for a while right, right, right, okay.

Speaker 2: 26:21
Um well, I personally think that the way to go about this conversation would be, first of all, going back to the rules of asking questions, don’t ask. Yes, no questions, don’t ask. Oh. Are you expecting, uh, expecting me to spend 100% on the family?

Speaker 1: 26:40
Are you expecting me?

Speaker 2: 26:41
to be the only breadwinner, exactly, don’t do that, just generally you can ask. So what are your expectations in terms of finances for the future? What kind of lifestyle are you looking to have?

Speaker 1: 26:56
How do you envision a work balance, work, family balance, right um also like are you is buying a house important to you, or are you okay living in one, one or two bedroom apartment for, like I don’t know, 10, 15 years, or until you have your first kid?

Speaker 2: 27:15
um, these questions are important there are a lot of ways to ask, but the most important thing is don’t shy away from this conversation because you want to know the sooner the better, but, like you said, not in the first or two meetings.

Speaker 1: 27:29
I would say not in the first one or two meetings.

Speaker 2: 27:31
And actually in our compatibility challenge book we have a lot of questions about finances which can break this awkwardness about this topic. If you’re looking for ways to talk about this topic, then we encourage you to check our book out. It’s available on our website Also.

Speaker 1: 27:50
you know if we have seen girls who have expressed a desire to be, to take on a traditional role. So what are her financial expectations? If she’s going to be doing that, is she still looking to have her cake and eat it too, and that could be a major red flag or is she okay with living a simpler lifestyle, given that she’s not going to be working or contributing? And so you want to assess these very nuanced things in your conversations.

Speaker 2: 28:20
And same thing goes for the girls as well. I mean, you also should ask the guy questions to just learn about his spending habits. Is he the kind of guy to go on I don’t know shopping sprees and buy like expensive sneakers and change a car every other year or so? Or is he more the responsible type? Um, does he have debt? Or also, does she have debt right? This is something very important to uh be aware of before you say I do uh any student loans. So, yeah, all these topics about finances are very important to cover and, at the end of the day, it’s a tawfiq from Allah, subhanahu wa ta’ala. But you just do your part and leave the rest to Him. At the end of the day, you’re both on the same team, you’re both working towards the same goals and you’re there to help each other.

Speaker 1: 29:18
Exactly so. If you are looking for a match and you’ve come across some crazy questions or requests regarding finances, or somebody has said that they’re expecting 50-50, or a girl has said to a guy listening that she is not going to contribute at all because she expects to be taken care of whatever it might be, we would love to hear about it, because this podcast can only grow from your feedback. So the more we hear from you guys, the more we can give back to you guys.

Speaker 2: 29:49
Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 29:51
So yeah, please email us at info at halalmashca, or just feel free to leave a comment then.

Speaker 2: 29:58
Yeah, we’ll see you next time.

Speaker 1: 30:00
All right, assalamu alaikum.