Episode 10: Halal Dating: An Oxymoron or an Inevitable Reality?

Speaker 1: 0:00
Assalamu alaikum, I’m Hiba. And I’m Zaid, you’re listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

Speaker 2: 0:05
A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

Speaker 1: 0:09
We’ll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

Speaker 2: 0:12
So let’s dive in. Bismillah, assalamu alaikum everyone, welcome to another episode of Diary of a Matchmaker. My name is Zaid and on the other mic is my wife and co-host, hiba.

Speaker 1: 0:28
Hello, assalamu alaikum.

Speaker 2: 0:30
Halal dating.

Speaker 1: 0:32
What.

Speaker 2: 0:33
That that’s a term that I keep seeing. Uh, I’ve been seeing it on Instagram. I mean, we, we have the word dating in our service and, of course, that word itself carries a lot of negative connotations, and then, when you put halal dating, it just sounds like an oxymoron.

Speaker 1: 0:54
Halal pork.

Speaker 2: 0:56
Yeah, it’s kind of like saying halal pork, right. But like, for example, if you look up the Abs Salams on Instagram, you’ll see right under their profile I’m pretty sure it’s still there the word halal dating. And now, this episode isn’t meant to bash apps or other services, but rather think how, as Muslims, we can approach marriage living in the West, because we’re surrounded by non-Muslims.

Speaker 2: 1:23
Right, right is living in the West because we’re surrounded by non-Muslims Right, right and non-Muslims. Their whole thing is date the person for an X number of time months, years, whatever it might be and then get married.

Speaker 1: 1:33
Or sometimes have kids and then get married.

Speaker 2: 1:40
That too. But aside from the sexual component of dating, there is that belief that you should quote, quote, unquote get to know a person before getting married. Of course, but islam isn’t necessarily against that right. Um, and the deeper question is how can we get to know a person without falling into haram?

Speaker 2: 1:56
right uh, because we all know the hadith if a man and woman is alone, then shaitan is a third um. So how can we get to know someone without falling into haram? Is there? Is there a middle ground? Because on the one end, we have conservatives saying, no, don’t you know, don’t get in, don’t do these things without the involvement of parents, without parents supervision. On the other end, you have liberals saying I want to meet somebody on my own at a coffee shop or somewhere and I want to talk to them on my own terms and then involve parents, and then we can get married. So how do we figure out this middle ground? Is there a middle ground?

Speaker 1: 2:32
I really don’t. I know there is a middle ground, but it’s a matter of finding it, and especially in this day and age, living in the west but even people living in the east, like it’s it’s becoming a little bit difficult to get to know the person in depth before marrying them. And on the other hand, if you don’t do that, we see a lot of marriages are ending, and very early on yeah, because, like we shared in the previous episode about divorce, it’s happening because of incompatibility. Right.

Speaker 2: 3:06
So clearly there is a need to talk to the opposite gender to assess compatibility.

Speaker 1: 3:14
Yeah, I think it all starts with intention. Yeah, is your intention when you’re talking to this person? Is your intention or both your intentions? Are they geared toward marriage or are you just hooking up companionship, spending time talking to a friend? They’re like your friend, right.

Speaker 2: 3:34
But is intention itself enough to start with? I mean, let’s say we weren’t married Right. And I don’t know. We were talking at a matrimonial service and we live locally, um, and we sincerely want to get married. That’s our intention. Is it okay for us to just go meet at tim hortons and say, okay, this is just for the purpose of marriage, but hey, it’s a public place, we’re just meeting for the purpose of marriage. We haven’t exactly told our parents that we’re meeting in a public place, is that okay?

Speaker 1: 4:05
I think without parents knowing it’s not okay.

Speaker 2: 4:08
It’s not okay, yeah, okay, let’s say, your parents did know.

Speaker 1: 4:13
If my parents knew and our intentions are clear and we are meeting at a public place and we’re not holding hands, we’re not touching or anything. I think it’s a good way to get to know the person I know it’s going to be controversial and all of that.

Speaker 2: 4:28
But remember, we’re not trying to pass any flat doors here.

Speaker 1: 4:31
We’re not saying honestly, we’re just like asking you, asking ourselves questions, because the other day we were taking a walk and, um, we started just talking about this, because the topic came up multiple times and there must be a way. Now we know the prophet said that there shouldn’t be a halwa between a guy and a girl now what is a halwa? A halwa is a guy and a girl meeting alone at a close place, not in a close place in a close place, exactly in a close place, exactly Now.

Speaker 1: 5:05
If they’re meeting in public with the knowledge of the parents and their intentions are clear, I think it would be okay. This is not like a fiqhi opinion or anything. We’re just honestly thinking out loud.

Speaker 2: 5:24
I think I would be okay with that. Yeah, I mean. Yeah, I would definitely tell my parents, with their approval. I think I’d be open to that. But before meeting we would just set some very clear boundaries and make sure our intentions are pure.

Speaker 1: 5:45
Of course Now somebody could say then why not do that with the girls’ mahram sitting at another table just watching?

Speaker 2: 5:55
Yeah, I mean because, let’s be honest, even if the mahram is sitting at another table just watching. Yeah, I mean because, let’s be honest, even if the mahram sitting on another table, would you, would you feel comfortable? Would, if your mahram was sitting on another table? I don’t think I would feel very like, a hundred percent comfortable and open and vulnerable with you. Like you, I don’t think you would get to know me a hundred percent if there was another set of eyes watching me.

Speaker 1: 6:17
But he’s not sitting on the same table, he’s not listening to the conversation, so you could say whatever you want.

Speaker 2: 6:22
He’s watching me, though, right.

Speaker 1: 6:24
I guess, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:27
It feels weird, just like picturing this, but let’s compare that to live events, right, because you and I talked about this. With live events, typically, what happens is guys and girls showing up to an event. They’re all single. Um, in most cases, the girls mahram isn’t there. In some cases, I have seen the mom or dad show, but most cases the mahram is not there and the only other people there are the volunteers and organizers.

Speaker 1: 6:54
um, so how is that different?

Speaker 2: 6:57
how is that different right?

Speaker 1: 6:58
and yeah, they’re meeting for the purpose of marriage in public, like are surrounded with people and um, their intentions are clear right.

Speaker 2: 7:08
I mean it’s a matrimonial event, so obviously they’re there for the purpose of marriage.

Speaker 1: 7:11
Yeah, and uh, supposedly the parents do know Right.

Speaker 2: 7:16
I mean, if you want to get nitpicky, technically that’s more quote unquote wrong than going to Tim Hortons because this is a closed room.

Speaker 1: 7:24
Yeah, but yeah, it is closed. But they’re not alone in it.

Speaker 2: 7:28
So in another way.

Speaker 1: 7:29
They are in public because they’re surrounded with people.

Speaker 2: 7:33
Right right.

Speaker 1: 7:33
Yeah, but I mean, it’s about principle. If that is haramam, then this should be haram, right yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:41
So where do we draw the line? Because, like, ultimately, we’re trying to being raised in the west, we’re trying to fuse our cultural norms and uh and our customs with islamic expectations and rules. Um, like, alhamdulillah, we’ve accomplished that in our service. I feel like I’m like 100% confident that our service is that secure middle ground.

Speaker 1: 8:06
Especially after consulting with the scholars.

Speaker 2: 8:08
Yes, but for people who can’t afford a matchmaker, what do they do?

Speaker 1: 8:16
I mean, if I think about how it works back home, what typically happens is the guy would visit the girls and her family in their, in their house. Uh, he would probably come with um accompanied by his mom or his sister, like a lady in the family. They would sit together with the family, families get to know each other. Just like an introduction meeting, introductory meeting.

Speaker 1: 8:42
And then the guy would keep coming back to see the girl in her parents’ house. They would talk amongst each other, ask each other, questions, all of that, and then decide if they want to move forward and do an engagement or not.

Speaker 2: 8:58
So there is the opportunity for the guy and girl to have some privacy to talk, assess compatibility and things like that, so traditionally Like in a separate room, or how would that?

Speaker 1: 9:08
Traditionally, yeah, they would sit together, maybe in the living room. The parents would be at a different room or sitting at the other end of the room but, typically they would meet at the girl’s house right Out of respect for the girl in the family.

Speaker 2: 9:27
This is just like how things work back home.

Speaker 1: 9:31
And if we’re talking about more liberal people in the West, in the East Middle East, then there is dating Like you can’t pretend there is no dating in the Middle East right.

Speaker 2: 9:41
Right right.

Speaker 1: 9:42
But living here. I don’t know how that would work.

Speaker 2: 9:45
I think the important thing is that we can’t keep throwing the haram label.

Speaker 1: 9:49
Right.

Speaker 2: 9:50
We can’t keep saying this is haram, that’s haram, this harm, that’s haram, because the more we keep throwing that label, the more enticing haram becomes, because we can’t keep closing the doors to halat. We have to push forward and make things easier for muslims, because the sunnah was that the prophet always made the path to marriage easy right um.

Speaker 2: 10:09
So we talked a little bit about you know um in the segregation episode. About you know book clubs, like creating controlled, safe environments for guys and girls to meet for the purpose of marriage. Um, live events. You know our service.

Speaker 1: 10:27
There are ways to make it work I would honestly like to like pick the brain of a scholar, or like a an established chair who lives in the west.

Speaker 2: 10:38
Yes, I was just about to say that, because you get somebody over in saudi or syria, they’re gonna say haram, haram, haram and then the conversation’s over yeah, but yeah, just understand the logic of it, the principle itself, and see what they think yeah, because someone like a scholar here in the west, raised in the west, would understand the needs and demands and not just that, but the, the norms right of the west what about the virtual setting when a guy and a girl are talking on a matrimonial website um half?

Speaker 1: 11:12
our dean or something. So if we’re talking about khalwa, then they. When they are talking alone, there is a like virtual khalwa right but then again. If they’re not gonna do that, then how are they gonna get to know each other so?

Speaker 2: 11:24
I mean, let’s be honest, let’s be transparent, like when we were talking that. I guess that was a form of k, form of because we were talking through whatsapp and we were talking through skype and then we met on hod.

Speaker 1: 11:35
So, of course, our parents knew and they knew that we’re talking on skype and all of that. But I mean it’s about principle. If the khalwa is like if a guy and a girl sitting together talking about marriage, all of that is haram, then let’s say they’re like a guy and a girl met on a matrimonial website. He lives in the east coast, she lives in the west coast. How are they gonna talk to decide if they even want to make the trip and meet right and involve the families, like I mean, let let’s take a traditional approach to this.

Speaker 2: 12:12
The guy would contact the girl’s father and say, hey, I’m interested in your daughter, and then, by the permission of the wali, then he would start talking to the girl right, but he haven’t talked to her first to decide if he’s interested in her or not.

Speaker 1: 12:28
So they need to talk first to see if there’s interested in her or not.

Speaker 2: 12:30
So they need to talk first to see if there’s something to talk about well in order to get that permission if, to get that permission, he would first have to talk to the wally right? Isn’t that how?

Speaker 1: 12:40
traditionally then every like profile he sees a picture he sees on the on the website he’s gonna ask for her wally’s number give me your number. You might as well have the wally’s number on the profile right I honestly feel like we are tiptoeing about around this topic without having clarity and we don’t have that clarity, and I’m sure many other people don’t have that clarity how things would work. I want to stick to the halal. Uh, I want to have baraka. I’m serious about marriage. How should I go around about it?

Speaker 2: 13:13
um, the thing is that there is no right or wrong to this right it’s not.

Speaker 1: 13:18
There’s no black, no, not necessarily.

Speaker 2: 13:21
It’s a very gray area. Every situation is different, right like, you and I were living on different continents, so our situation was different, for For other people they could be living locally, and so they have to navigate that a bit differently, so we can’t just have a one-size-fits-all answer is what I’m saying.

Speaker 1: 13:37
Yeah, but honestly I feel like maybe Shuyukh decided to sweep this topic under the rug, not discuss it, because it’s uncomfortable, there’s lots of question marks around it and just we’ll treat every case separately. But people need clarity, people need answers.

Speaker 2: 13:56
Yeah, and if a clarity is not offered, they’re gonna turn to the like not so halal way I feel that the focus is primarily on topics like the fiqh of marriage, divorce, other topics that are more concrete and that shuyukh are maybe afraid or uncomfortable, like you said, to dive into the more gray area which is finding ways for guys and girls to meet, for them to assess compatibility, to talk, which are all essential components prior to marriage, and providing ways that people can do this in a halal way.

Speaker 2: 14:43
And if we keep painting with the same brush of haram, haram, haram, then we’re not making progress.

Speaker 1: 14:50
I think this gray area was created because shuyukh kept leaving this topic and not talking about it and sweeping it under the rug.

Speaker 2: 14:59
I agree.

Speaker 1: 15:00
And that’s where all the cloudness and clarity started. Like there should be a discussion, like a real conversation about it.

Speaker 2: 15:13
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And because the situation is getting worse, Divorces are going up. You know, more and more people are either giving up the idea of marriage, delaying marriage, there’s infidelity happening, there’s premarital sex happening. I mean, the list goes on and on.

Speaker 1: 15:35
Yeah, but how does that connect to people?

Speaker 2: 15:39
Because people because shuyukh are sweeping this under the rug. Right, because they’re not creating a means or solutions for guys and girls to meet in a halal, supervised, controlled way, just like we talked about in the segregation episode.

Speaker 1: 15:54
Okay, guys, join us in this conversation, let us know what you think. Is there a solution? Is there a middle ground? Is there something we’re missing here and we’d love to know what you think. And also if you’d like to work with us? Inshallah, find you a match, get you married. You’d like to work with us? Inshallah, find you a match, get you married. We’d love to work with you. You can connect with us through our website, halalmatchca, and until we meet on the next episode, inshallah.