Episode 24: Love Beyond Cuisine: Why You Should Consider IRM

Speaker 1: 0:00
Assalamu alaikum, I’m Hiba. And I’m Zaid, you’re listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

Speaker 2: 0:05
A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

Speaker 1: 0:09
We’ll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

Speaker 2: 0:12
So let’s dive in. Bismillah, assalamu alaikum everyone, welcome to another episode of Diary of a Matchmaker. My name is Zaid and on the other mic is my wife and co-host, hiba.

Speaker 1: 0:26
Assalamu alaikum.

Speaker 2: 0:28
So by now you guys probably know that we are an interracial couple. I’m Pakistani, Hiba is Palestinian.

Speaker 1: 0:36
Together we make a Pakistani.

Speaker 2: 0:40
Okay, that was the worst joke ever. Okay, that was the worst joke ever. So when we were first talking at least with me I felt a certain degree of not anxiety, but I had some concerns. Choose your words wisely. Concerns, doubts, fears all of these things were just brewing in my mind when we first started talking back in 2019.

Speaker 1: 1:11
Thank you, that’s so flattering.

Speaker 2: 1:13
Thank you, you’re welcome, because this was uncharted territory for me. Previous girls I had spoken to were I think they were all South Asian. I had spoken to were I think, yeah, I think they were all South Asian. Um, so this was the first time I was like seriously getting to know somebody that was Arab and um, obviously, the questions that kept coming to mind is you know, how is your family going to? You know, accept a Pakistani guy, somebody that doesn’t speak Arabic, somebody that didn’t grow up in the Middle East that doesn’t speak Arabic, somebody that didn’t grow up in the Middle East that doesn’t know the culture, etc. Etc. All these questions started running through my mind. But the funny thing is that you said that your family, you had none of these concerns at all.

Speaker 1: 1:59
No, not really. No, it wasn’t a factor.

Speaker 2: 2:02
The only fear for my parents not fear like concern was the language, like you said because my parents speak arabic.

Speaker 1: 2:09
They don’t speak english.

Speaker 2: 2:11
You speak english, your parents speak english, so there was a missing link there yeah, uh, but like we’ve said in previous episodes that you know, we didn’t let these differences get in the way. We made sure that our values aligned, our goals, our expectations and, alhamdulillah, everything else fell into place. So, inshallah, we’re going to dedicate this episode to that part of our journey. And you know the topic of interracial marriages as it relates to our service and some of the lessons that we’ve learned and some theories that we have as to why people are so averse to interracial marriages. Yeah, so you said that you had none of these concerns, which is great. I felt so clear. It was just a problem on my end. But when we look at our service and our registration forms, um, we clearly ask people are you open to someone outside your ethnicity? And majority of cases, I would say maybe. What?

Speaker 1: 3:16
70, 80 percent, maybe uh, say no, even though we’re talking about people who were born here or grew up here. Um, we’re not talking about like in our case, we had a another layer of difficulty, which is the distance yeah, the distance, the different upbringing but, here. We’re talking about people who grew up here, who their first language is most likely english.

Speaker 2: 3:41
Some of them, their parents, were born here, and yet there is still this apprehension about more than apprehension, uh closed-mindedness about marrying someone from a different ethnicity, and I think I used to think it was a problem with the older generation, that the older generation wasn’t okay with it, but we’re seeing people like around our age even younger than us like for me.

Speaker 1: 4:08
I feel now that Pakistani and Indian culture, they’re very similar. Like you guys have almost the same food, you dress the same way, you both speak Urdu, yet some Pakistanis are not open to marrying an Indian and some Indians are not married.

Speaker 2: 4:24
I can think of one guy that signed up with us Even like some Arabs, are not open to marrying another kind of Arab. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:34
Yeah, where there is no issue of language here.

Speaker 2: 4:38
So we have some theories behind that, but the thing to point out is that, like, if you’re living in this country and, uh, you know you’re arab, you’re pakistani, indian, whatever it might be um you’ve, you’ve adopted your own kind of um canadian islamic culture yeah right, you fuse canadian norms or, if you live in the states, american norms, american values with your islamic values. Yeah, so there’s a new culture that’s formed exactly as a result.

Speaker 1: 5:11
Yeah, so your culture is not exactly the same as your parents exactly, yeah, right and um, like someone who grew up here. Whether they’re pakistani or arab, whether they live in BC or Ontario or Texas, they most likely have the same culture, the same Muslim Western culture.

Speaker 2: 5:30
Exactly.

Speaker 1: 5:31
Allah, subh’anahu Wa Ta-A’la, says in the Quran, in Surah Huzurat وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلًا لِتَعَارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عَنْد, that we’ve made you into different peoples and different tribes for the purpose of you getting to know each other. Like Allah could have created us from the same tribe, the same. We speak the same language, we look the same, but the purpose of creating us differently is to get to know each other. And what is a better way to get to know each other? Anything, but. And what is?

Speaker 2: 6:06
a better way to get to know each other than getting married To people?

Speaker 1: 6:08
of different ethnicities, the most noble and dignified in the eyes of Allah is the one with the most piety.

Speaker 2: 6:19
Most taqwa.

Speaker 1: 6:20
Most taqwa. Exactly, I think that, unfortunately, we derive our values, or some people derive their values, from culture rather than from deen.

Speaker 2: 6:33
Which is a huge problem for us.

Speaker 1: 6:34
Exactly. Islam should be our main reference. And Islam has no problem.

Speaker 2: 6:42
On the contrary, it encourages marrying outside of the culture, because ethnicity doesn’t fall under the the criteria of what makes a compatible spouse yeah, I think in the past and we were just sharing theories before this then the past like our parents were concerned about the preservation of language and culture, but with us first or second generation muslims growing up here, that kind of gets tossed out the window. You know many of us, I would say, if you’ve grown up here in Canada or the US. In most cases, as far as I’ve seen, people aren’t as fluent in their parents’ language as their parents are.

Speaker 2: 7:28
Yeah Right, like I’m not that fluent in urdu, my urdu is broke right, I can just barely get through a conversation, uh, and that’s the same case with many of my friends too.

Speaker 1: 7:40
So the preservation of language is it doesn’t take priority over the preservation of deen and if language was so important to you, which should be I mean, it’s your mother tongue right, but your concern should be more about learning and teaching your kids Arabic, the language of Quran.

Speaker 2: 7:57
Yeah, the language of our deen.

Speaker 1: 7:59
Yeah, yeah, I think there’s an element of nationalism here, like it’s important to be proud of your own culture and like hold it near and dear to your heart, right, but I think a big part of it is just us being um, I don’t want to use the word racist, but maybe we just prioritize our culture above islam yeah um, yeah, some people like some theories we actually have for the preservation about marrying from a different ethnicity. I would say one of them we said the culture right.

Speaker 2: 8:37
Sorry, the language.

Speaker 1: 8:39
Other one would be physical attraction. Maybe I’m not saying, but maybe people don’t find people from other ethnicities as attractive. What do you think?

Speaker 2: 8:49
Well, you can’t help that. I feel like you know that’s a combination of just how Allah has designed you, what you were born with, and you can’t help you who you’re attracted to, and you know, to be quite honest, a lot of cases. So we had a few African-American-american or afro-canadian clients and, uh, and many times they were specifically looking for somebody of um you know, north african or east african background, um, because that’s just naturally who they’re attracted to, um, and we, we obviously search according to their preferences. But the point is that you can’t help who you’re attracted to.

Speaker 2: 9:32
And so there is no judgment there. We can’t say you know, force yourself to expand your horizons and look for somebody who you’re not attracted to. It’s just not going to work.

Speaker 1: 9:41
Well, that’s it If it’s actually. If the reason is actually about physical attraction, then of course that’s very valid and legit yeah physical attraction, then of course, that’s very valid and legit.

Speaker 1: 9:52
Yeah, but the question is is this an actual like? Is the reason actually physical attraction, or is physical attraction a result of whatever other reason? Like we, there is a different reason and that’s why our eyes mislead us, or our I don’t know our judgment mislead us and we think we’re more attracted to people from our own ethnicity I kind of lost you on that point like. Is this a reason or a result? Um like okay, let me explain like you grew.

Speaker 1: 10:28
you grew up in this household, surrounded by people from your own ethnicity. Okay, I get what you mean. Is this a product of your environment?

Speaker 2: 10:37
Exactly Right a result of your upbringing. I think, yeah, that there is a big part of that. I mean, my upbringing I primarily grew up around South Asians. My upbringing I primarily grew up around south asians. Um, I didn’t have many middle eastern or non-arab, non-south asian friends or relatives, um. So, yeah, that obviously had an impact on me and naturally, when I started my search my mid-20s, I was immediately looking for south asians, because that’s who I felt that I would be most compatible with right the language, the food, the culture, all of those things. But, as sad as this sounds, it wasn’t until, like, I was further into my search. Then I started to expand my horizons, or expand my search, because I was just getting older and I really wanted to get married. And then you came along and you messaged me and I thought, okay, how?

Speaker 2: 11:36
am I going to make this work with some random girl in the Middle East, but we made it work.

Speaker 1: 11:40
Alhamdulillah. I think our eyes play some tricks on us.

Speaker 2: 11:43
Okay, how so?

Speaker 1: 11:45
Just because, like you said, we grow up with this idea of like, of course, I’m gonna marry someone from different ethnicity. Like I’m arab, why would I marry an un-arab? Like this is um instilled, like it’s a default yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 12:01
And then we start thinking exactly, and then we start thinking like what?

Speaker 1: 12:05
like no, I’m not attracted to someone who’s not arab I get what your point is, that we haven’t.

Speaker 2: 12:11
We’ve just grown up that way that we haven’t really taken the time to reflect and try to really, um, do some self-reflection or introspection yes, and think, okay is there. Can I be more attracted to somebody else? Can I have the same values with somebody that is outside?

Speaker 1: 12:30
my ethnicity.

Speaker 2: 12:32
And the truth is that you can, as long as you’re using Islam, like you said, as your reference and not your culture.

Speaker 1: 12:37
Yeah, because rationally like to think rationally there is no rational reason why you would be more compatible with someone from your own ethnicity, given that you grew up both here in the west, you both speak english, you both grew up in the same culture, like the western culture, I mean. So there is no rational reason why you would be more compatible with somebody, right?

Speaker 2: 13:02
I think one reason that I feel somewhat justified is family compatibility, like if, for example, with your family, I can see a reason why your parents would say no to me because obviously they want to speak in Arabic to their future son-in-law.

Speaker 1: 13:19
So family compatibility does play a part.

Speaker 2: 13:22
And if the in-laws don’t speak the language that the person you’re going to marry is most comfortable with, then I can see that as being a source of conflict.

Speaker 1: 13:31
Yeah, but we’re talking about people who are here like who? Parents are here. They’ve been here since the 70s, 80s, 90s. They have businesses here. They went to school here.

Speaker 2: 13:42
Yeah, but maybe some parents like despite living here, maybe they’ve only been here for 10, 15 years and they’re still used to speaking their own mother tongue and they haven’t developed a certain level of fluency.

Speaker 1: 13:54
So they in english so they decided to move here, start life here, have children here, bringing them up here, they go to schools here, all of that. And then when, when it’s time for marriage, they want to do it the same way they do it back home not necessarily the same way, but they want to make sure that they can communicate with this new addition to the family.

Speaker 2: 14:20
They want to make sure that there is some level of compatibility. Now I understand, the in-laws aren’t the one marrying the guy or the girl right. It’s more important that the guy and the girl are compatible. But I’m just kind of playing devil’s advocate at this point right Now. I feel family compatibility does play a significant part and so maybe you know, be speaking the same language or having that cultural compatibility component is maybe important. I don’t know.

Speaker 1: 14:53
I think it’s a little bit selfish of the parents, like because I want to have this relationship with the in-laws, with the other in-laws, then I am dictating my desires on my son or my daughter okay, yeah, because you when you got married. As a parent, you chose who you want to marry. As long as the person is muslim, he’s a good muslim or doesn’t do any practice, doesn’t do any of the kabbalah. He loves your daughter, she loves your son, then why not?

Speaker 2: 15:24
but there is another one which is funny, honestly um cuisine compatibility I thought you were gonna say that, which is surprising because, honestly, food you could pull up anything on youtube was tabbouleh, shawarma, matloubeh, the list goes on, I mean we live in chicken salad whatever.

Speaker 2: 15:45
You can pull up any recipe on YouTube, and food is something that you can easily have your spouse learn, or you can learn and then teach to your spouse. I cook a few Indian or Pakistani dishes. Hiba cooks several things, and we don’t even eat our own culture. We just had pizza a few days homemade pizza a few days ago.

Speaker 1: 16:06
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:06
So food? I mean, come on, our own culture. We just had pizza a few days. Homemade pizza a few days ago, yeah. So food? I mean, come on, if you’re really gonna say no to somebody because they don’t cook the food that you’re used to, that’s pretty immature I gotta say, yeah, it’s pretty like.

Speaker 1: 16:18
We heard the story from another matchmaker. She said there was a guy I’m not gonna say from which culture. Well, you’re probably gonna gonna know deduce from the story that one of his main conditions is that the woman he marries has to know how to make tabbouleh the specific ethnicity way. Like it’s not a plus, it’s a must.

Speaker 2: 16:40
Yeah, I mean talk about putting restrictions upon restrictions, restrictions upon restrictions. So if you’re a Pakistani guy, for example, and you’ve met this beautiful Palestinian girl on your college campus and you’re considering her for marriage, but your parents are not open to somebody that’s Arab, what do you do? So, first of all, the conversation about what your ethnic preferences are, what you’re looking for in a potential wife, should be something you should be a conversation you’re having early on way early on, Like the day you want to start your search.

Speaker 2: 17:16
your search should begin as a conversation with your parents. It shouldn’t begin with you creating a profile on a matrimonial website or hiring a matchmaker matchmaker, because if you, if you aren’t doing that and you you’re meeting a girl that you know, most likely your parents won’t be okay with, your parents are going to feel like their opinions and their feelings are being ignored like they’re being undermined they’re being undermined.

Speaker 2: 17:40
So please have those conversations early on and um, and hopefully your parents, with time. Maybe in the beginning they might not be open to somebody that’s not Pakistani, but in time, once they realize the hurdles and the difficulties of finding a compatible spouse in the West, in time, inshallah, with enough dua and maybe, if necessary, the intervention of an imam, they will open up.

Speaker 1: 18:07
I think that it’s very important to remind your parents, if they’re that stubborn, remind them that we are muslims. Remind them that, uh, islam should be the number one priority, and not the color of your skin or the country you come from, because sometimes our parents need nasiha from us. You need to play the preacher’s role, respectfully, of course. Respectfully, of course. So remind them of that. A lot of sometimes just heart soften when you remind them of Allah, subhanahu wa ta’ala, the purpose of us being here.

Speaker 2: 18:40
And estimate the power of dua.

Speaker 1: 18:42
Dua. Of course that was number one. Number two is dua. Keep making dua. Don’t despair. Allah changes hearts between a heartbeat and the next. Number three don’t try to push too much from the first conversation or the second conversation. Give it time. Sometimes they need some time to think, maybe reflect, maybe ask other people get nasiha right. So give it time. Don’t be too pushy from the beginning.

Speaker 1: 19:25
It might be that like you said Zaid, you need to involve an imam to also remind them of what are our priorities as Muslims. Oh, also, you could do an introduction. Introduce the families to each other so that they see them as humans. Humanize them instead of them seeing them as strangers or these like I don’t know aliens. I would say Humanize them by having an introduction yeah and be patient at the end of the day.

Speaker 2: 19:53
What’s written for you is written for you yeah, um, and maybe your parents have some valid concerns, uh, that you might be overlooking uh, because they carry a lot of wisdom too, so don’t be ignorant to that.

Speaker 1: 20:11
If you are listening to us through Apple Podcasts, you know you can leave a review there and, of course, you can read it. So let’s start a discussion. If you’re on Apple Podcasts, let us know what do you think about interracial marriages? Are you open to marrying someone from a different ethnicity and if not, then why? Spotify people, you can’t comment, but you can for sure, give us a rating Shoot for the stars. Give us those five beautiful ones, and we’ll see you next episode. Inshallah.

Speaker 2: 20:38
Inshallah Till next time, assalamu alaikum.