Episode 3: Is Segregation Helping or Hurting Us?

Speaker 1: 0:00
Assalamu alaikum, I’m Hiba. And I’m Zaid, you’re listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

Speaker 2: 0:05
A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

Speaker 1: 0:09
We’ll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

Speaker 2: 0:12
So let’s dive in.

Speaker 1: 0:14
Bismillah, assalamu alaikum everyone, welcome to another episode of our diaries. I am Hiba and on the other mic is my husband and co-host, zaid.

Speaker 2: 0:27
As-salamu alaykum everyone.

Speaker 1: 0:29
Wa alaykum as-salam Zaid, you know, as matchmakers, what is the one question we always keep getting asked.

Speaker 2: 0:36
Where can we find Muslims of the opposite gender for the purpose of marriage?

Speaker 1: 0:41
Yeah, when can we do that? Besides the apps, besides the internet? If we want to do it organically, like the old-fashioned way, how can we do it?

Speaker 2: 0:51
Yeah, and you would think the one place to go looking for this would be the masjid or other Islamic institutions, but unfortunately, and no attack to any masjids, but unfortunately, as matchmakers we’re not seeing these solutions found at masjids.

Speaker 1: 1:06
On the opposite, we see that the environment is not allowing for that, is allowing for the opposite, just extreme and complete segregation yeah, so a segregation is something I’ve seen most of my life.

Speaker 2: 1:17
I went to a private islamic school through elementary and high school and, uh, I would you know our classes would always be segregated. You know, gals on one side of the classroom, girls on the other side, and you know, even after I graduated high school, whenever I would attend events, classes, any sort of Islamic environment would always involve either a barrier or gals would be instructed to sit on one side of the room and girls instructed on the other side of the room, which is fine and it does serve certain purposes and and certain um you know classes, but the thing that I would never see is um an is an environment that allows for mixing in a halal, professional and safe way.

Speaker 1: 2:10
I mean, the masjid is the safest place, right? It’s the place where, if a guy and a girl meet, it’s healthy, it’s healthy mixing, it’s halal, it’s supervised, it’s in a holy place. So why do masjids keep putting those barriers? They start as physical barriers but become into what do you call it?

Speaker 2: 2:33
Like limitations, I guess Limitations.

Speaker 1: 2:35
Actual barriers between interacting between guys and girls.

Speaker 2: 2:39
And for the longest time I was thinking this was the norm, that this is what Islam prescribes, right, that Islam requires very strict segregation from between genders. But as we were researching and planning our workshops, we uncovered a lot of narratives that differed from this. Actually, and there’s a famous incident, a hadith, that’s recorded, and correct me if I’m wrong. It’s recorded in Bukhari and Muslim, and if you could share that story, please, Sure.

Speaker 1: 3:10
So the Sahabi Abu Usaid Al-Sa’adi. When he got married, he invited the Prophet and a few Sahabas to break bread at his house, and who prepared the food? It was his new wife. And who served the food to the prophet and to the Sahaba? It was his wife. She served them with her own hand. So, like if you go to weddings today, you would see, at least back home, weddings are completely segregated. If we’re talking about the more conservative families, for example, my mom would never attend a mixed wedding, even if there’s no dancing and no music. It’s just like some nasheeds being played and all of that. And yet we find in the seerah it’s completely the opposite. And from the research we’ve done, the people who advocate for this extreme type of segregation, they rely on the ayah in Surah Al-Ahzab, the that says أَعَذُ بِالْأَمْشِطَ الرَّجِيمِ بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ وَإِذَا سَأَلْتُمُوهُنَّ مَتَاعًا فَاسْأَلُوهُنَّ مِنْ وَرَاءِ حِجَابٍ. If you ask them meaning, if you ask the wives of of when the Prophet passed away and had questions regarding fiqh and things like that.

Speaker 2: 4:36
They would have come to Aisha, because she was one of the muftis at the time, and they would question her from behind the screen.

Speaker 1: 4:41
Exactly. But the thing is, across all the mufassirin they say that this ayah refers to the wives of the Prophet. Then how can you extrapolate that this ayah applies to just the community, the rest of the community, right.

Speaker 2: 4:59
It is strange, and I understand that, certain types of environments, certain classes, there should be a separation. But my problem is that when that is all you see growing up and then you reach an age when you are seriously considering marriage and the institutions that should be facilitating that and should be helping with that are not providing an environment where you can interact with the opposite gender, where you can see the opposite gender, then what you automatically assume is that these places aren’t going to help me.

Speaker 1: 5:37
Help me get married. I better go to other places.

Speaker 2: 5:39
I better go to other places. So where do people go? Apps, matrimonial websites that aren’t necessarily private or help assess compatibility.

Speaker 1: 5:52
Even they could go to haram places.

Speaker 2: 5:54
They could go right. So, right from the get-go, whether it’s intentional or not, these institutions, unfortunately, are not serving that purpose of marriage. And what we’ve also noticed as matchmakers is that there is still a lot of fear and anxiety associated with the topic of marriage, and we’ve seen it at festivals all the time People see our banner, they run away, and so we have to create an environment where you know, like Muslims, just creating the random matrimonial event isn’t going to solve this problem, Right? So we have to create an environment where it’s number one and I cannot say this enough safe, controlled and halal, but Muslims are seeing one another, there is a certain level of comfortability and interactions happening so that when they are at a point where they are mature and financially stable specifically talking about guys then they can say, hey, I remember Aisha from the masjid, I remember Fatima and she was was very pretty and she was mature. They have those options available to them, right?

Speaker 1: 7:01
Yeah, and you know, interestingly enough. So I studied in the faculty of Sharia in Jordan and there was no segregation.

Speaker 2: 7:09
Wow.

Speaker 1: 7:09
Yeah, so what used to happen is guys used to sit in the front rows, girls used to sit behind them, but there was no actual barrier, like even discussions sometimes would happen in the class between students, guys and girls, and it was healthy, right, except for classes about Tahara that was segregated for obvious reasons, but besides that we were like in the same classroom.

Speaker 2: 7:35
So that begs the question where does this extreme segregation come from?

Speaker 1: 7:39
I have my theory.

Speaker 2: 7:40
All right, I’d like to hear it.

Speaker 1: 7:41
Okay. So I think that political agenda was behind it in the first place. Back back back like in the 20th century, where specific movements were created that took a much conservative approach.

Speaker 2: 7:58
In specific countries.

Speaker 1: 7:59
In specific countries that we’re not going to name, and that agenda, that way of practicing Islam, was pushed on people and one of the aspects of that movement is extreme segregation. And now, surprisingly, those specific countries now are completely changing their views about Islam and taking another extreme. So they went from one extreme to another extreme. And the same shuyukh, who used to preach segregation, no music, even at some point photography was considered haram. Wow, who used to preach segregation, no music, even at some point photography was considered haram.

Speaker 2: 8:37
Wow.

Speaker 1: 8:37
Yeah, same shuyukhs now are changing their minds 180. That’s my theory. Oh, and those shuyukhs, like people from those countries, scholars, they were imported to the West to teach Islam and all of that, and they carried that with them.

Speaker 2: 8:52
Unfortunately, and the thing that we forget is that Islam alhamdulillah, it’s such a blessing that Islam is a way of life that can be practiced across all continents and cultures, and we have to understand that the way Islam is practiced in the Middle East or in China or Indonesia can be very different from how Islam is practiced in the West, without diluting the religion, without changing the principles, because that’s the way Islam is designed, right. And so we have to understand the underlying principles behind segregation and whether or not it’s helping us or hurting us, especially in the realm of marriage. So there are solutions to this problem. It’s not, you know, black and white. That you know because and I hear this all the time from knowledgeable people too that if we allow mingling and interaction between the opposite gender, then you become this slippery slope and then we’re inviting haram, and that’s not the case.

Speaker 2: 9:48
You know, when we do our double dates, we understand full well that there is the potential that they might be able to exchange contact information, do haram outside of our supervision, but understand that that’s between them and Allah. What we’re doing is providing a safe, controlled, halal environment for them to get to know one another for the purpose of marriage, and so that type of mindset can also apply at masajid or other Islamic institutions, anything, anything right. So the solutions are they’re multifold right. You can come up with a hundred million different ways for halal controlled environments for Muslims to get to know one another. You know, whether it’s book readings, whether it’s excursions, events at like a nursing home, game nights, whatever it might be, there are so many different ways where you can help Muslims to meet one another, just to know that one another exists.

Speaker 1: 10:43
Yeah, exactly, and we’re not talking about guys and girls just meeting, going out and all of that.

Speaker 2: 10:49
We’re not letting this place turn into a nightclub or a drinking event. Nothing like that.

Speaker 1: 10:54
The event could be. Whatever event it is, could be supervised by, like the organizer, by I don’t know a scholar, by somebody older, and it’s like they’re not it’s structured it’s structured exactly and the intentions should be clear, and those events should be paired with education.

Speaker 1: 11:14
We should educate the youth about how to interact with the opposite gender in a healthy and halal way. How does the other gender think? Because men and women think differently. So when they’re at the age of marriage they’re not talking to. The guy is not talking to a girl for the first time in his life and he doesn’t know how to approach a girl.

Speaker 2: 11:35
He becomes mute.

Speaker 1: 11:37
Exactly. Or a girl exactly same thing. So there are different ways.

Speaker 2: 11:41
Like you said, book discussions even halaqas, halaqas, then that turns into a segregated event.

Speaker 1: 11:49
So we don’t want to or just reflecting on ayat, reflecting on the seerah of the Prophet.

Speaker 2: 11:56
There could be a group discussion where, like girls are giving their gems and their opinions about certain topics related to Islam and guys can see the responses of women and women can see the responses of men. Yeah, workshops.

Speaker 1: 12:09
Workshops. Yeah yeah, you know a funny story worth mentioning. So a few weeks ago, we conducted a workshop at a masjid and I forgot my glasses, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:19
I remember this story.

Speaker 1: 12:20
I forgot my glasses there and then I realized later and it’s a city that’s not too close to us. So I asked a brother that worked with us on the on the workshop to go and check for me. So then a few days later he texts me and he says that, um, I tried to go in the hole to get the classes, the glasses, but there were like women there, they were having a class or something and they wouldn’t allow me to come in. He said it felt like I was a shaitan approaching them.

Speaker 2: 12:51
Exactly so. I’m sure there’s people listening to this thinking well, there are masjids that do matrimonial events, but you have to understand matrimonial event just a matrimonial event is not the solution. Like I said before, there’s still a lot of fear and anxiety associated with the topic of marriage and typically the people that show up for matrimonial events are people that are much older, people that have tried many other options and, in some ways, desperate.

Speaker 1: 13:18
Yeah, you don’t want to let it get to the point where people have to attend matchmaking events. You want them to interact in a healthy and halal way outside of marriage purposes, so when they’re ready for marriage, they can know people. They already know people. They have options. Yes.

Speaker 2: 13:34
And just remember that the more we close the doors to halal, the more enticing haram becomes. So we need to create more halal avenues for people and ultimately go in line with what the Prophet’s objective was, which was to create yams and make the path easy for marriage and not difficult Right. So with our people’s benefit.

Speaker 1: 13:57
Let us know what you think. Do you agree? Do you disagree? Have you come across this phenomena in your community? And, inshallah, we’ll meet you next episode.

Speaker 2: 14:06
Alright, assalamualaikum.